53: 39 Years After the Shooting of Jim Brady

Jim “the Bear” Brady saw his career cut short on March 30, 1981, during an assassination attempt against the president. In addition to President Reagan, Jim and two law enforcement officers were shot. Jim suffered a serious head wound that left him partially paralyzed for life. Soon after the shooting, Jim and his wife Sarah Brady, became respected gun violence prevention advocates. Today, Brady President Kris Brown and VP of Legal Jon Lowy talk with host JJ about that fateful day in 1981, and the Brady mission and legacy that followed (and continues!) today.

Mentioned in this podcast:

• 6 Ways You Can Prevent Gun Violence While Social Distancing Amid COVID-19 (Brady)
• The History of Brady (Brady)
• Reagan press secretary and activist James Brady dies at 73 (PBS)

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their long standing legal support 
℗&©2020 Red, Blue, and Brady

Transcript

JJ:   0:02
Hey everybody. This is the legal disclaimer where we tell you that the views thoughts an opinions shared on this podcast belongs solely to our guests and our hosts, and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note that this podcast contains discussions of violence which some people may find disturbing. It's okay, we find it disturbing, too.  

JJ:   0:42
Hey everybody and welcome to an extra special big bonus episode. Why is this episode here? Well, because today, March 30th 2020 is the 39th anniversary of James Brady being shot, and it may seem strange to call it an anniversary. I guess it's better to call it a day in memorial or commemoration. But the thing is, is that this was a really important day, not just for Brady's history but for gun violence prevention in the U.S. So today we're here to talk about what happened on March 30th of 1981 but also about the legacy that followed and where it came from. And to do that, I'm joined with the great Lowy and Kris. I'll have them introduce themselves to you in a minute, but I do want to throw out an additional warning for this one. We will be playing some audio from news sources and phone calls and what not. And so this is one of the rare cases where a Brady podcast may mention the name of a shooter and we'll have audio of a shooting taking place. Thanks for being here with us all. We really appreciate it. 

JJ:   1:47
Can I have you two introduce yourselves to our listeners, although they should both know you since you've been fabulous podcast guests before.  

Kris Brown:   1:53
I'm Kris Brown and I'm the president of Brady.

Jon Lowy:   1:56
I'm Jon Lowy and Vice President of Legal and chief counsel at Brady. 

JJ:   2:01
So in the interest of time, I want to go ahead and just start by playing a brief clip from PBS of the shooting itself and what happened that day.  

audio clip:   2:17
Ronald Reagan was two months into his presidency when John Hinckley Jr. drew a $29 handgun outside the Washington Hilton Hotel on March 30th 1981. He wounded the president, Brady, a Secret Service agent and a Washington police officer. Reagan and his guards fully recovered, but the .22 caliber bullet exploded into Brady's forehead and left him partially paralyzed.  

JJ:   2:46
And I was wondering, Lowy if you could maybe give us a breakdown of that event that day.

Jon Lowy:   2:54
Sure well, for me personally, a few months before in November I cast my first presidential vote for Ronald Reagan. And I actually was very enthusiastic about Reagan at the time. And I think even people who didn't like Reagan, whose politics loved him because he was that sort of guy. I was in college. I remember vividly actually leaving class and stopping by the beer and wine store to buy beer to watch the NCAA basketball championships, which were to be that night. And a man behind the counter had a small television, and it had news that the president had been shot and I went back to my dorm and gathered around with other students to watch the TV in the common room. And for hours, you know, watched the events unfold, you know, particularly as someone who was enthusiastic about the president, it was extremely painful. And then, you know, more broadly, you have to remember that just a few months before John Lennon had been shot and killed outside of his apartment in New York. So there was this feeling that you know, my God, anyone can be shot and killed in this country. You know, maybe the biggest entertainer in the world and you know, the most powerful leader in the world.

JJ:   4:16
Can we talk for a minute just about the two other men who were injured, who don't seem to get as much attention?

Jon Lowy:   4:22
Sarah would often speak up for Tim McCarthy and Thomas Delahanty, who were shot and are often not mentioned. You know President Reagan and Jim are mentioned as victims but they were shot as well and thankfully survived as well.

JJ:   4:41
Yeah, I think though, one of the reasons too that Jim gets the attention he did is obviously the activism that the Brady's then turned to, but also the fact that, you know Jim Brady was reported having passed away on the news, and I was wondering, Kris, if you could maybe talk about that very briefly because I know we've talked a lot in Brady about sort of the trauma that Sarah and her family had to go through.

Kris Brown:   5:06
Yeah, well, I think that, you know, there was a lot of speculation and concern and if you read Sarah's book, which I recommend to anyone. She talks a lot about those moments and frankly, many subsequent moments. Because what a lot of people don't know is that while Jim did survive the initial wounds and there were reports that he actually died in the operating room, those were incorrect. They did leak out into the public, and then the information had to be corrected. But there was a lot of rumor and misinformation that was out in the public. And that happened not just once, but several times because Jim, it was a long struggle for him in terms of recovery. And he had a lot of incidental issues that cropped up. An infection that actually imperiled his life. So that wasn't the first time that he had, on an emergency basis to be taken back into the operating room. I can tell you, when you read her book, especially, you know, her voice comes through. She was an incredibly strong person, and obviously so is he. And they just really had a very, very long journey for recovery. And the only thing I'll add to that is that when Jim finally did pass away. It basically stated that he died from his wounds. There is no question he lived a much shorter life than he would have otherwise because of the nature and degree of his wounds. So the fact that he was with Sarah able to accomplish what he did, I'm awestruck by it. It's just truly amazing.

JJ:   6:47
And and we're actually lucky enough to hear from one of the surgeons that helped save Jim's life and also then became a friend and has a great Brady story.

Dr. Jeff Jacobson:   6:57
This is Dr. Jeff Jacobson, I was a surgeon that took care of Jim in the emergency room, and one of the surgeons who operated on him. I got to know Jim's family quite well through this ordeal, and I think I got to know him a little bit; Jim before the shooting, from talking to his friends and family, and what a wonderful person that he was. I could certainly see that he improved during the course of the hospitalization. Started out as a very ordinary day in the hospital turned into quite an extraordinary day with shooting the president, and but we all went through it and the country went through it. In these times of difficulty, you know, everyone appreciates the things that go on in the hospital. One personal story was captured by Sarah, when she said to me one day at work, Jeff you look so sad. You're always so happy. And that makes me happy that you enjoy your work. And I told her that, uh, Bruce Springsteen was coming to town, and I was working so hard, I just couldn't get any tickets for it. And she consoled me a bit. Two days later, I got a page that there was somebody from the Secret Service there and I went down to see him. He handed me an envelope. Said it was compliments of the president of the United States. And there were two tickets to see Springsteen. Um, but, uh, you know, the whole incident with Jim when he was there, stayed with me as an important milestone in my career. A wonderful personal relationship. So I wish everybody well, in these times, thank you.

JJ:   8:48
I love the ticket story, but also, I was hoping Jon you and I have talked about this a little bit before, about the shooting itself and sort of how it underscores some of the work that Brady has continued to do in terms of how easy it was for the shooter to gain access to the gun. And then also, what has always struck me so much about this is the type of bullet that was used, which was a special kind of exploding bullet called a devastator. So for the fact that you know, he was able, this man was able to get a .22 caliber, and then he was able to get these exploding bullets that when Jim is shot, goes into his head above his left eye, enter into his brain that when the D.C. police officer shot the bullet doesn't explode, which causes a huge amount of trauma down line. The Secret Service agent got shot in the chest, all of these things that these bullets, you know, these six bullets that were fired had a lot of impact, despite the fact that it was from a cheap, not high impact gun. And so I'm wondering if we could talk about that about, you know, the ease of access to the gun, the ease of access to the sort of bullet real quickly.

Jon Lowy:   10:01
Well, I'd like to talk about it from Jim and Sarah's perspective because, you know, you've described it very well. And that's exactly what motivated Sarah to get involved in the issue of gun violence prevention. And that's actually, I think, true of many, many victims and survivors. When they hear about the facts of how this happened, how this person was able to get a gun, it shocks them and that that was Sarah's view. She told it many times that when she learned just how easy, how quick, how cheap, how, you know, without any screening, this extremely troubled man was able to get a lethal weapon and ammunition to kill. And you know, in this case to totally, you know, alter the life of her husband. You know, just shocked her. And that's you know what held her and Jim to then, you know, fight for the Brady Law to get involved in our organization and lead it for some time. Another thing they did is they brought a lawsuit against the gun manufacturer, which is a maker of Saturday Night Special handguns, cheap handguns that were frequently and easily obtained by criminals. And the lawsuit failed, but it also showed that even so many decades ago, Jim and Sarah realized that there were many approaches to the gun violence problem. And certainly legislation was really important that litigation was important. Public education, everything that we do it Brady now Jim and Sarah recognized early on.

JJ:   12:00
And that's something that Brady has continued to do, too. Which is in the courts, continue to bring lawsuits on behalf of victims of gun violence too. To go after, you know, manufacturer sellers who have behaved inappropriately.

Jon Lowy:   12:14
That's exactly right. I will tell you, I remember also distinctly my first day at Brady, which was now over 22 years ago, and I met Jim, Jim and Sarah had offices at our Brady office at that time and was introduced to Jim and they said, this is our new lawyer and he looks me up and down from his wheelchair, and he just has a smirk on his face. And after the shooting it was sometimes difficult for him to talk. Sometimes he would talk very slowly, would seem like he would say fewer words than he otherwise would have, because it was a struggle to say words. But his mind was as quick as ever. You knew from what he said that, like if he could talk the same way, there's a lot more there but he would have to crystallize it, and you sort of knew that. And you knew it also took some time from to think about what he's gonna say to get it out. But anyway, he looks me up and down, says, with this smirk, just what we need another lawyer.

JJ:   13:29
That's the thing that I take away from everyone who called in and we had so many calls we can't get to all of them, but everyone who called in, or anyone who's ever told me a Jim and Sarah story. It's always centered around Jim and Sarah being these phenomenally like funny and resilient people who seemed to have, despite everything, this sort of boundless energy for this fight. And I think that's really impacted the work culture at Brady too. It's a very passionate office, but it's a very fun office, which I appreciate.

Jon Lowy:   14:02
I think that is spot on and, you know, a couple things. One and actually Joe Biden spoke about this at length at a memorial for Jim after he passed away, about this to the great love affair of Jim and Sarah. And that they were together, they were the sort of couple that you wouldn't talk about one of them, you talk about Jim and Sarah. That was very true. And, you know, Sarah who I knew much more, worked with, lobbied with, you know, she was extremely fun and funny, but, you know, by reputation, history, Jim is the one who had this just remarkable sense of humor, and I think maybe it sort of passed on to her in some ways, but she was, you know, so determined, but also always knew that things had to be fun. I think just because they were fun loving people and enjoyed life. And it just worked out perfectly, I think for this issue, which can be very daunting, and you lose a lot of battles before you win them. And she maintained the sense of fun. There's a story that she would tell a lot that when she would lobby for the Brady Law, she would view herself as Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, and she would classify senators and representatives. After meeting, she'd say, basically, whether they were the cowardly lion, the scarecrow, or the tin man. Whether they didn't have a heart, a brain or the nerve. In some cases, she said, you know that one was all three. Just to maintain this sort of fun game about things, and and that's carried through in a lot of ways, and it certainly carries through today.

Kris Brown:   16:05
I think that for me, having worked on the Hill early in my career and worked there when Jim and Sarah would be walking and rolling through the halls, anyone who met them and I had the privilege to do that, too, was struck by their conviction, their courage. They were indefatigable, absolutely. But there is always a sparkle there in each of their eyes, individually and then together they were, you're so right, Jon. It was always Jim and Sarah, and that was really inspiring and continues to be inspiring. And I've heard those stories from senators when I talked to them about Jim and Sarah and people who knew them for years and years and years. So they had just incredible character and didn't let the injury and the debilitation that was real physically that Jim suffered get in the way of what they wanted to accomplish. They kept their eye on the prize, and I think that also is reflected in the team we have at Brady today and our grassroots supporters all across this country who share all of those characteristics and really have made a huge difference on this issue.

JJ:   17:25
Like I said, the stories have just been, like, overwhelmingly adorable that I've heard from people about him and about Sarah because apparently Sarah herself was also a very funny, very quick witted person. And so maybe we'll play Sarah in her own words right now so listeners can get a little taste of it. One of my favorite comments from her when she's addressing Congress, because I think it's rare that we get people addressing politicians, maybe, and just sort of laying out exactly what they think of them, which is lovely.  

Sarah Brady:   18:00
It's been a long, hard battle. Hardest on this one right here, but he's done so beautifully and we've learned to adjust to our lives. I want to urge everybody, everybody to get involved. To let your members of Congress know, that they need to be courageous. They need to step up to the plate. They need to do the right thing, and that is to support these common sense bills. Large capacity magazines, there's absolutely no reason for them. Most members of Congress today will vote with this. They don't wanna have to because they don't want to make the NRA mad. But they are for this piece of legislation who couldn't be? How could you look yourself in the mirror and say, I believe in large capacity magazines for God's sake. 

Kris Brown:   19:03
It's like an anthem, you know, I repeat that all of the time. Sarah had a lot of, uh, very pithy, to the point expressions related to that, and one that I talk about a lot is if you can't change the laws, then you have to change the law makers and people always respond incredibly to that because that's democracy in action. But she just found a way to do it, that related to what we, as individuals could do to make a difference around an issue we care about. And she was really great that way. At really relating back the power that each of us have to make a difference on this issue. And it was very inspiring. 

Jon Lowy:   19:48
And also, you know, our slogan or motto: Take Action, Not Sides. I mean, you know who can exemplify that more than Jim and Sarah, who were, you know, long time Republicans, conservative republicans. Jim, you know Ronald Reagan, obviously, I believe [inaudible] campaign. Very, very conservative in some ways. But then we're just committed to gun violence prevention. And ultimately then spoke of the Democratic convention because of the gun issue. They remained, Really, I think in their souls, Republican. But it was this justice commitment to the cause of gun violence prevention. And for them working across the aisle was working with Democrats. You know, another famous phrase of Ronald Reagan's was the evil empire was which Reagan was calling the Soviet Union. And, you know, their communist reach was the evil empire. Well, Jim called the NRA the Evil Empire. I mean, that was to the point that what I heard Jim, he wouldn't say NRA. He would say the Evil Empire. And that was because, you know, and I don't think that was just being funny. That was being truthful because he understood how Kris said how, you know, insidious their influence is. And I'm sure if he could look back even from before Reagan and see things like, you know, the Consumer Product Safety Act, you know, NRA pushed for exemption so guns can't be regulated. The you know, every other product, including BB guns, can be regulated. And you know the Gun Owners Protection Act, which Reagan signed, by the way, had awful provisions which the NRA pushed basically to prevent ATF from effectively regulating, you know, the sort of corrupt gun dealers that Kris was talking about. The supply, the criminal gun market. I mean, there is no common sense rational, you know, support for any of these things, except to make gun companies money, even if they're endangering and sometimes resulting in deaths of of American families. And so I think James was speaking a great truth when he called the NRA the evil empire. And this is again coming from a longtime Republican where the NRA is a major political player in his party. And yet he was calling things straight, and I think that became even more true over the years with things like Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act and other you know, just really horrible, dangerous piece of legislation that the NRA has pushed over the years.

Kris Brown:   23:00
Yeah, and I think one thing that you're raising there that's really important, especially with Brady's history and legacy that they created that we continue today and take action, not sides. Thinking of Jim and calling the NRA the evil empire was also noting that they're representing the industry here. They're not about really focusing on average, everyday gun owners and the kinds of things that they care about. There's a huge divide there, a divide that obviously continues when you look at some of the behavior and things that the NRA is accused of in the last few years. Million dollar packages for their CEO, multiple homes. This is not creating an environment that's really focused on stewardship of guns, training and guns. This is an environment that is about money and the role of money and politics. And I think Jim knew that very well. And that's part of the reason he was so successful is he was able to talk to members of Congress to have, you know, a rich history on putting, you know, gun owners first, and show them that that's not what the NRA is doing. And you can support these measures and still put gun owners first. And that's a big part of their legacy, I think, to this movement and what Brady carries on today.

Jon Lowy:   24:23
Yeah, and, you know, I think just personally and politically, Jim and Sarah would almost certainly be more comfortable hanging out in a room of reasonable gun owners than in a room of sort of really left-wing ban all guns people. That's just you know who they were and where they came from. But they understood, you know, these things that they're pushing for, background checks for all gun sales, effective regulation of the gun industry are not about banning guns. They're just common sense measures and the sort of reasonable gun owners that you know that they would grow up wouldn't work with in the Republican Party are people who would and and I think still do support our agenda. 

JJ:   25:25
Well on that note, then, for folks that find themselves supporting Brady and found Jim and Sarah to be so important to them, I want to go ahead and play now a message we got from Donna Dees-Thomases.

Donna :   25:37
This is Donna Dees-Thomases. I remember exactly where I was the day that Jim was shot. I was a press secretary to United States Senator Russell Long at the time. It was my first job out of college, and I was on my way to the Final Four basketball game in Philadelphia [inaudible] gave me his tickets. And on the way there I heard on the radio about the shooting. It hit me very hard because as assistant secretary, I admired Jim Brady for what he did. He was a press secretary to the president, and there was no one who was better at the job than Jim Brady. He was funny. I looked forward to reading his quotes from The Washington Post and seeing him on television at the White House briefing. So when we got the news I remember how devastating it was. It was also very personal to me as well working for Senator Long. Senator Long's father had been assassinated Senator Huey Long, in 1935. Very similar in that Senator Long, Huey Long was surrounded by bodyguards. He was in the state capitol in Baton Rouge, again it was 1935. And an agitated constituent confronted him. And there's some controversy on actually, which bullet killed Senator Long, was it a ricochet bullet from his bodyguards is still questionable. But I think I remember most about Jim Brady's shooting is that I had to bring the news to Senator Long that he had to talk about the shooting death of his own father. This did not make me an activist. I'm not sure why, but I know when I finally did become an activist in August of 1999 the first person I called saying I wanted to volunteer was Sarah Brady. She was the activist I had heard about since the Brady Bill was signed and the person I most admired and that's my story and thank you so very much for remembering Jim on this monumental day.

Jon Lowy:   27:37
You know I mean, I think one thing that Donna hit on and talking about Reagan's, uh, attempted assassination and Huey Long and, of course, other assassinations throughout American history is it really puts the lie to the NRA's good guy with a gun fallacy. You know, this idea that if you bring a gun into your home, it can protect you. And that's the best way to protect yourself. I mean, here you have President Reagan and Jim, you know, probably the best protected person on the planet, surrounded by the best trained gun carrying guards you could possibly have. And here's just some guy who's able to shoot him and the president and Jim could have been killed. If that's the case, you know, it's just a total fallacy to say that you know, one person carrying a gun is the answer to your self-defense worries. Of course Wayne LaPierre doesn't believe it either. I think he's got guards that protect him as well, he at least puts out this fallacy because it sells guns for the industry.

Kris Brown:   29:05
Yeah, I guess, um, you know just reacting to Donna Dees-Thomases reflections on where she was and what Jim meant to her. It's interesting from our prior conversation, JJ, how much his humor was noted in what she said when he was press secretary. She liked reading his quote in The Washington Post because there was always some element of humor in what he had to say. And for her, you know, she also is a very inspiring figure we know for our movement. Of course, years later, she went out for a walk, and about a 1,000,000 people joined her in that walk. And my mom and I were two of those people after Columbine. I know that she was living in New Jersey. She was a mom, she had two daughters and she wanted to do something, and it just shows you and she did. So she is the founder and leader of the 1,000,000 Mom March, which obviously galvanized our nation to really try to do something even bigger around this issue to stop what was in essence after this one of the most notable school shootings in our country. And sadly, we've had many more, but that kind of grassroots activism has been so critically important for our movement, and it just shows you the importance if you look at it and think about it, about inspirational leadership. Jim, Jim Brady was and is, for us a very real person, an inspiring leader. And he inspired so many other leaders like Donna Dees-Thomases and those of us here at Brady to try and make a difference around this issue. And I think that's very profound when you think about the world today. And all of us would love to be able to look at various important positions and have inspiration, but at least to know we can, and it does exist. And it certainly existed with Jim Brady. Brings warmth to my heart in these days.

Jon Lowy:   31:12
And I was there with my my kids who were then babies. And, uh, if you see footage, you'll see Sarah Brady speaking from the podium wearing a handkerchief or bandanna around her head. And it's because she had just undergone chemotherapy for cancer. And that did not stop her from, uh, speaking as vibrant as ever.

Kris Brown:   31:41
It's amazing.  

JJ:   31:43
Well, and on sort of people getting involved in activism being galvanized. I really want to play this clip we had from Heather, who called in which I think is just so great.

Heather:   31:53
I'm Heather Kelly and I was in high school in Arlington, Virginia, the day that Jim Brady was shot during the assassination attempt on President Reagan. I remember the school wheeling in its public access TV and as we watched the news, it was not only scary but personal for a lot of us since the Brady's lived in our neighborhood. I was one of their backup babysitters for their son, and I remember that news anchors first mistakenly reported that Jim died that day. I ended up turning into a psychologist, and as part of my work and maybe in part in Jim's honor, I'm proud to echo the founding and ongoing mission of Brady. I'll never forget who inspired it.

Kris Brown:   32:32
Oh, wow. 

JJ:   32:33
Right, isn't that so sweet?

Kris Brown:   32:36
That is incredibly sweet, and you're right, it does remind me of what we were just talking about. And it is these defining moments in life that you only kind of realize how people inspire you when you get old enough to kind of look back and see a path where when you're kind of moving along in life, you make your choices because those are the choices. But when you look back on it, you can see the influence that various people have had. And I suspect many, many people who knew exactly where they are. I included I was a middle school when Jim Brady was shot, and I do remember being incredibly disturbed. All of us were. And when I think about it was the most notable shooting for me in my life at that time, and it impacted my sense of safety for the very reasons that Jon said. Well, if the president who has all of this security, is potentially going to be shot, and I also grew up in this area, so I had driven by that hotel right? These things that you just see every day and it felt like the world suddenly became far less safe, and I remember feeling like I wanted to do something to make it better in some way, and it's just really moving to hear Heather's comments and know that she's, you know, serving as a psychologist today, in part based on how her life was shaped by that.

JJ:   34:09
Well, I think that's a remembrance to like these public figures that we hear about in the news or unfortunately, you know, the victims and survivors we hear about in the news. They have wide impacts in their communities, right? The, we're not islands. So they you know this impact not just their family and friends, but, you know, babysitters, teachers of their kids, a grocery store clerk they were always super sweet to, you know, these, we have a big impact on one another. So when we lose 100 Americans a day, it's not that they're just 100 Americans that are hard. There are countless thousands that are harmed every single day in these ripples and doing this podcast that's become very, very clear,

Kris Brown:   34:48
Right, well, and as terrible as our own national reaction right now has to be in terms of isolation and physical distancing that all of us are doing right now. I think it has become very obvious to all of us, of human beings, how connected we really are and how much we rely on and need each other. It's the only silver lining that I feel is kind of apparent in all of this. And of course, our movement is really based on that. What happens to the least of us happens to all of us, and we have to make a difference on it.

JJ:   35:23
Really reflective of that impact I think is, so We got a call from Anna, who is now in Boston but was actually living in Italy at the time of the shooting and and called in which I love a good international call for US domestic podcast. 

Anna:   35:40
Hi, my name is Ana and I'm calling from Boston. I was born in Italy. I grew up there up to age 25 and I spent the rest of my life in this country. I remember well when the attempted assassination of President Reagan took place. In those days I was a student at the University of Padua. Because of the difference in time between the US and Italy, it was late in the evening when the attempt happened. I was together with two other students. I was watching on TV a movie by Fellini La Strada. A banner appeared on the screen that indicated that the movie would be interrupted for an emergency broadcast. The news anchor said that an hour before there had been an attempted assassination of President Reagan that the conditions of president could be transported to a local hospital were unknown. Black and white photos of President Reagan's surrounded by the Secret Service and being pushed into a car came on the screen. The tone of the anchorman was very somber, and it was clear that there was a real fear that another president could possibly die by assassination. The younger man described the events surrounding the shooting the fact that President Reagan press secretary James Brady, and other individuals could also be seriously affected by it. Then he summarized the shooting that were perpetrated against political figures in the U.S. in previous time. He recalled the attempted assassination of president Ford, both successful assassinations of Martin Luther King, Bob Kennedy and President Kennedy and all the way to Lincoln's assassination. The list seamed to never end. We looked at each other in the eyes. There was a short silence in the room and then we questioned how it could be so easy for common people to target so many high visible individuals. At that time Italy had had its fair share of political violence. They were the so called years of lead. Political violence in Italy was a more complex approach by far-right or far-left terrorist groups. Usually involving bomb explosion, kidnapping or riots that requires strong financial organizational support. It was truly horrible and deplorable. That was not an individual act. Among friends, we discussed the culture of gun violence prevalent in the US and even made the sarcastic joke about the country never having moved away from the Wild West mentality of self-made justice and revenge. We question, is the culture of weapon ownership that up to then appeared to be only an American phenomenon, combined with the copycat attitude by attention seeking individuals could be exported to other countries? Thankfully, it did not turn out to be the case.

Kris Brown:   38:32
I mean, it's amazing to think in today's world, although you know, I'm sure it would be the case even today, but that Anna was a student in Italy. She knows she's watching a Fellini film and that the film gets interrupted for that news and the impact that it had really around the world. We know as Americans it had a profound impact on us. But that impact felt around the world. And those same questions being asked, frankly, that still get asked today about why? Why do Americans and why does the United States allow the level of gun violence that exists there compared to every other industrialized country in the world? And I think that question that she was asking in 1981 is every bit as relevant, more relevant today when you think about 40,000 Americans dying every year, on average, from gun violence in this country. 

JJ:   39:33
Well and I think too just as someone who worked overseas, that was always the question I got asked about, sort of just the easy access to guns because it's not that other countries don't have guns, they do. It's just that the access to them is a little bit different, and it doesn't mean that crime goes away. But it means that crime is certainly is not the same, and it's not at the level of lethality that we see. 

Jon Lowy:   39:58
Yeah that's exactly right, JJ. And you know, there's actually a great book which I would recommend to people listening from years ago called Crime Is Not the Problem by Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins. And they basically studied crime rates in American cities and compare them to comparable foreign cities. Like New York and London and you know, Seattle and Vancouver and they did all around the world. And basically they found that American cities are no more criminal. They've no more crimes than other cities. In fact, in some cases we have less crime than in those cities. The differences are criminals have guns because we don't regulate guns as well, and therefore our crimes become fatal or severely damaging shootings.

JJ:   40:50
And maybe for our our last viewer call, I'm gonna play someone who you all should know.

Cordy Galligan:   40:56
Hi JJ, Kris and Jon and all our Red, Blue and Brady listeners. This is Cordy Galligan and I'm Brady's VP of Communications. I was going to college right here in D.C. at Catholic U., when I heard about the attempted assassination of President Reagan. He was the first person I'd ever voted for in a presidential election because I felt our country needed his strength of purpose during a turbulent time in world politics. What was particularly frightening to me is that John Lennon had just been shot in early December, and now, about four months later, the president of the United States was a target. It makes you question who among us was safe. And while we were all focused on the president, I remember the different reports we've received throughout the day about his press secretary. I can't imagine what Sarah went through turning on the news and hearing reports her husband had died. Only to have those contradicted minutes later. Most of all, I remember thinking, how are people like the shooters getting guns? This is crazy. Through the years I've watched shooting after shooting until Parkland, which was my personal enough moment. So here I am proud to be carrying on the work of Jim and Sarah today.

Kris Brown:   42:27
Cordy, I remember when Cordy was interviewing for the position of VP of Comms, her, telling me that same story and how the work that we're doing, she knew, had always been important. But Parkland for her was a personal catalyst to really come and make a difference around this issue. And I think for many people like her, the work and what we do really becomes a vocation, something that is you're so deeply passionate about, not only to preserve and to create more of a sense of safety than in that scene that's coming across in the comments that people are making JJ.  But also very grounded in the kind of country we all want to live in. And the kind of freedoms I know, and Jon can reflect on this far better than I, but that all of us want and believe are at the basis of the American experience, which does not include going into public places and risking getting shot. Not if you're a public figure and not if you're an individual. And that's another theme I hear coming through in the comments that is a big reason I'm involved with this is the kind of country I believe all of us really do deserve. And that's one free of this kind of gun violence.

Jon Lowy:   43:57
You know, for all of us and particularly in these times but also on this issue is to care about how we act small and how we act big, you know. Jim and Sarah, you know, they treated people well. They cared about people as individuals, and as I was getting at that's the culture at Brady now, certainly. And you know, these times of coronavirus it's particularly important, but it's always important. So acting small is important. But then acting big is important, you know, because Jim and Sarah, if you think about it, are two of the greatest citizen activists in American history. I mean, really, you have to go to people, like go to the civil rights movement. Leaders of the civil rights movement and certainly if you know, some others and I'm not gonna list because I'm gonna forget them. But it's a fairly small handful of people who have had, you know, just this extraordinary positive effect on America, because they were just citizens. I mean, it wasn't because he was the press secretary, he wasn't the press secretary anymore. It was because they were citizens fighting, you know, for justice. And, you know, because of the Brady Law, there's no question that hundreds of thousands, probably millions of lives have been saved and changed. And then the Brady organization, which is now saving so many more lives partly because of their activism and then all of our supporters and Kris and and all of us. That's what Jim and Sarah teach us is to take care in how we act small and how we act big.

Kris Brown:   46:00
I do think that it's a really great way to capture their legacy. And again if you read Sarah's book, which is A Good Fight. Her approach to all people and all interactions is exactly that. She treated everyone the same and so did Jim, and they were profoundly kind, decent people. In addition to achieving obviously something absolutely historic and you're right, it's a model for citizen activism that all of us can aspire to. Not everyone can achieve those things, but collectively we certainly can and be inspired by their legacy and their approach to life, both in the small things and the big things.

JJ:   46:44
Today, even in this time of physical distance thing, if we want to honor sort of Jim, Jim and Sarah's memory. What are some things that people at home could be doing?  

Kris Brown:   46:54
Well, what I would ask people to do is go to our website Bradyunited.org. We have a sort of take over on our main page about all of the different things that folks can do right from their own living room couch, to make a difference on this issue. There's still a lot of advocacy to be done, and there are a lot of things that are, for example, pending in the Senate right now that we want passed. You can use your voice to make sure you're lifting up the importance of finally passing background check expansion, and the Senate is standing in the way of doing that, they don't need to. Extreme risk laws that are so important to us and a variety of other measures. And there are a whole host of other things that we can be doing when we're talking to friends and neighbors. As things start opening up, let's make sure that we're asking the question if there's a gun in the home, and if there is whether that's loaded and secured. And there are a whole lot of tips that we have on our website about how to make those conversations super easy and normalizing those conversations because that's how we can save lives. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be advocating with a politician. You can do that. That's part of what we'd like you to do. But we also just want you to reach out and talk to your neighbors about these issues and those are simple conversations, but they can be really profound. And believe it or not, we have heard, we know they save lives. They make a difference.

JJ:   48:21
Lowy, Kris, thank you, guys both so much for coming on record with me as always. I really appreciate it.  

Jon Lowy:   48:27
Thank you.  

Kris Brown:   48:28
Always a pleasure. JJ.

JJ:   48:29
Thanks for listening. As always, Brady's life saving work in Congress, the courts and communities across the country is made possible thanks to you. For more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcast. Get in touch with us that Bradyunited.org or on social @Bradybuzz. Be brave and remember: take action, not sides.