Red, Blue, and Brady

33: Giving Gun Owners Their Seat at the Table

December 16, 2019
Red, Blue, and Brady
33: Giving Gun Owners Their Seat at the Table
Chapters
Red, Blue, and Brady
33: Giving Gun Owners Their Seat at the Table
Dec 16, 2019
Brady

How do we get more gun owners involved in the fight against gun violence? What is the gun violence prevention movement doing wrong? To answer those questions, gun novice JJ is joined by two great gun owners: Kyleanne Hunter, VP of Programs at Brady, Marine veteran, and corgi owner; and Mark House, a New York city public school Principal and father. Together, they're trying to find a way for everyone to be included in the conversation on how to end gun violence.

Then, JJ dips into some unbelievable news--namely, why guns don't belong in schools--and the gun violence prevention wrap-ups move from Fridays to Mondays! What?! I know, I know, we're getting crazy around here.

In this episode, you'll learn:

...about the culture of gun ownership;
...why safe storage matters;
...what it's like dealing with the "new normal" of school shootings;
...how some gun owners respond to "common sense" gun laws;
...what it's like, being a gun owner who is involved with efforts to reduce and prevent gun violence;
and, what the gun violence movement is doing wrong.

Some of the links mentioned in this episode :
"
End Family Fire."
"
Gun Ownership."

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their longstanding legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Show Notes Transcript

How do we get more gun owners involved in the fight against gun violence? What is the gun violence prevention movement doing wrong? To answer those questions, gun novice JJ is joined by two great gun owners: Kyleanne Hunter, VP of Programs at Brady, Marine veteran, and corgi owner; and Mark House, a New York city public school Principal and father. Together, they're trying to find a way for everyone to be included in the conversation on how to end gun violence.

Then, JJ dips into some unbelievable news--namely, why guns don't belong in schools--and the gun violence prevention wrap-ups move from Fridays to Mondays! What?! I know, I know, we're getting crazy around here.

In this episode, you'll learn:

...about the culture of gun ownership;
...why safe storage matters;
...what it's like dealing with the "new normal" of school shootings;
...how some gun owners respond to "common sense" gun laws;
...what it's like, being a gun owner who is involved with efforts to reduce and prevent gun violence;
and, what the gun violence movement is doing wrong.

Some of the links mentioned in this episode :
"
End Family Fire."
"
Gun Ownership."

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their longstanding legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Support the show (https://www.bradyunited.org/donate)

Speaker 1:
0:09
[inaudible].
Speaker 2:
0:09
Hey everybody. This is the legal disclaimer where we tell you that the views, thoughts, and opinion shared on this podcast belong solely to the person talking to you right now and on this podcast and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please know this podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find a survey. It's okay. We find it disturbing.
Speaker 1:
0:43
[inaudible].
Speaker 2:
0:43
Welcome back to Redwood Brady, the podcast that deals with gun violence and gun violence prevention. Now today I'm flying mostly solo again as JP is still out there trying to save the world. Luckily I'm joined for a bit by the wonderful Mark House and the wonderful Kailand Hunter. Now Mark is a New York city school principal, a gun owner, and a Brady supporter who is here to talk to us about how responsible gun owners need to be involved in gun violence prevention efforts. Tie, as you should all know by now, she's been filling in for J P quite a bit. His vice president for programs at Brady is a Marine veteran and is it going to owner? Heck, she was voted most likely to be Annie Oakley in high school and trust me, if he knew Kai, you'd believe that what you might not believe comes up in our unbelievable blood segment where I'm going to tell you the story of how guns in schools can go horribly wrong, even in the most trained hands. Finally, I'm wrapping everything up for you with a new segment, the news which has been requested by you listeners, I'll be covering some gun violence and gun violence prevention news that you really need to know, but before I get marked tardy, let's hop over and get started with Mark and Ty
Speaker 1:
1:52
[inaudible].
Speaker 3:
1:52
We are joined for this fabulous episode by Kai Hunter. Hi, I'm Kai Hunter, vice president of programs at Brady and we also have a phenomenal new guest who has never been on this podcast before, whereas Kai has Mark House. Hi, Mark. Do you want to just introduce yourself really quickly to our guests?
Speaker 4:
2:10
Sure. My name is Mark House. I am a gun owner. I am a principal of a public school in New York city and I'm trying to find a space where it makes sense around gun regulations.
Speaker 3:
2:20
That is a phenomenal introduction guy. He showed you up a little bit. I know he did. Maybe I should. Maybe I should jump back in. Hi, I'm Kai Hunter and I'm a gun owner. I am also the vice president of programs at Brady. And you've got a corgi. Yes, and I have a corgi. So we have like gun owners for gun violence prevention and corgis for gun violence prevention. Ivy Shamus one of the, like the very first people we had on this podcast said that all dogs would be for gun violence prevention. So Mark, I believe this is actually your first podcast. Uh, so thank you so much for coming in and for taking the chance on your first podcast. And I was curious that when you heard that eight gun violence prevention organization wanted you to come on air for a, what
Speaker 5:
3:00
was your first thought?
Speaker 4:
3:01
Uh, I was worried that by the time the podcast was over, um, that would be the end of the affiliation with Brady. Um, it's like I was like, I hope I don't say anything that they find too objectionable. Uh, was the first thought that went through. And then the second thought was if it's, if it's helpful at all to put my voice into this conversation, then I'm more than willing to do that.
Speaker 5:
3:19
And I am super excited that you're here for this because something that I always like to think about in this conversation is the fact that, you know, there are 393 million guns out there in this country that people own. People like you and me own these own these guns and there are policies, practices, procedures that we all talk about wanting to advocate for. You know, we can pass all of the great laws we can, we can strengthen the policies around getting a gun. But if we're not bringing our voices into the conversation, there's still going to be 393 million guns out there with people who don't want to be part. Don't feel like they're part of it. Don't feel heard in the conversation. And so expanding this table of, of who's talking about gun violence prevention is super important for me to do. So I'm glad. I'm super glad that you're here. And would, would like to hear from you a little bit about your, what, what brought you to the point of being willing to, to share your voice in this conversation? Cause it, it's not always easy.
Speaker 4:
4:19
Sure. I, I think it's kind of for me the intersection of of three disparate things coming together. Um, so one, uh, I'm a dad, I have a nine year old kid, um, who's amazing and fantastic. I grew up hunting and shooting, uh, recreationally. It's always been something that we did for fun. Um, and I've got a nine year old daughter who's a vegetarian living in Manhattan. Um, he was regularly scolding her father for all sorts of different sens but, and trying to figure out how to make a safer world for, uh, for a kid. And there's something about waking up and talking in your kid at night and seeing them and going, wow, I, this is, this is scary when she comes home and talks about the, the shooter drills that they do at school. Um, when you hear the pop pop sound at night and you know what it is because you shoot guns and it's not a car backfire.
Speaker 4:
5:04
So that's, that's part of it. Coming to it as a father and trying to come to terms with, you know, beliefs that I may have once held that no longer seem as relevant when you're looking at an innocent nine year old kid. Part of it. Second part, I said in the introduction, I'm a public school principal, so I'm actually the one running the shooter drills. Um, I'm the one trying to figure out what happens if somebody comes into our school with a gun. You know, how many people are we going to lose who get shot first? How do we lock down classrooms? How do we hide kids? How do we go through this whole process? It's become such a normalized experience for my students. Um, and that's should give everybody pause when you're trying to figure out how to hide a 11 year old from a potential shooting.
Speaker 4:
5:42
And when we sat down and started looking at it and trying to figure out, that actually seems more likely than a fire at this point. You know, we grew up doing fire drills and, and now the fact that somebody coming in intentionally to shoot up a school seems, I don't know the stats on it. Um, but it seems like, at least in my mind, a more likely scenario where I work. That's, I mean, it's the intersection of those places that really brought me in thinking. And then the last part was a frustration. I actually met somebody who is in the Brady foundation, my buddy of mine, who's a principal of another public school up in New York. And he was talking about it and I kind of was snarky and I said, Oh, another organization that doesn't know anything about guns making, you know, gun policy and regulations.
Speaker 4:
6:18
And he said, what? And I said, when was the last time you shot a gun? You know? And he, he laughed. He said, I shot one, I think once when I was in boy scout camp. Um, and I, I said I don't, I said, I've watched law's rollout again and again where they make a particular feature illegal and the gun manufacturers seems to take them about eight months while they scratch their heads collectively and go, Oh, so we'll do this instead and just to take of, to be frustrated about it, to go, well, if you're going to make a law, let's make sure it's one that actually has a serious impact on what we're seeing instead of, you know, dabbling around the edges. So he said, okay, hot shot you, you think you know so much. And then drag me to a Brady foundation meeting, which I thought was going to be a one off. Um, but here I am. Gotcha. Yep.
Speaker 5:
7:04
There's a culture around guns and gun ownership. So I'd like to hear a little bit about your, your background with guns, how guns were a part of your life growing up and how that is shaping where you think there's a space just for this sort of social norm, change around gun ownership and bringing your responsibility really back front and center in and being a gun owner.
Speaker 4:
7:28
Sure. I, I think I would actually, uh, it's interesting cause I think there's a number of sub cultures within gun ownership, right? I represent one or two of them. So, um, so I grew up out in rural Maryland and I, we didn't think it was unusual to roll off the school bus and grabbed BB guns and pellet guns and wander off into the fields. And the eventually evolved into 22 rifles and eventually shotguns. But it was, it was very much a, I don't think anybody would on the school bus would have thought that was an abnormal afternoon activity was it was culturally what she did. When you got home, you went, you know, grabbed a bow or grabbed a gun and that was what you did outside. It wasn't like a small col-de-sac where there are a bunch of other kids on bikes. And then also the, the hunting aspects.
Speaker 4:
8:08
I'm, I'm a pretty avid deer Hunter, pheasant hunt rabbit. So that's, that's another subculture that's a little bit different, right? It's not the pure recreation shooter. Um, I actually find a number of hunters shoot a surprisingly few number of, of rounds a year or a little alarming sometimes. Um, but that, that's, that's a separate culture, um, in a separate set of, uh, firearms that they're interested in. So those, those are the two cultures there. And then there's kind of a range culture too. And so I belong to a shooting range and Manhattan, those do exist. So a legal gun owner in New York,
Speaker 5:
8:40
I grew up in the Bay area of California and we have gun ranges too. So as much as they're there, they're there.
Speaker 4:
8:46
And it's, it's interesting there too because I, I know few people who are more well versed in firearms than the folks there. And they are also, they would be mortified to not be following a law. They are some of the most avid folks. I know about making sure they're following all the regulations, making sure everything's taken care of. God help you. If you walk into that range and you'd have your gun already loaded, the range officer's going to give you the business you're going to be asked to leave. Um, you know, they expect you to follow safe practices to follow the law. Um, it's their reputation and it's their business that's on the line. And I've, I've found that to be true when I was shooting in Texas, I found that to be true when I true my shooting in Virginia that a lot of gun ranges have folks that are there that are very avid about shooting and gun ownership but are also very, very interested in making sure they're following all the regulations in the laws.
Speaker 5:
9:33
And I think that that's a really important aspect of, of this conversation and actually that that culture is actually very similar to the military type culture. I mean the, the policies around safe weapons handling responsibility is, is front and center to, to military handling as well. And like if you're, if you're on the rifle range in the military and you even stand up before like unloading and showing clear like drill instructor is literally going to smack you in the back of the head and like make you do pushups forever. So, you know, th th th that's, it's taken very, very seriously. However, like so many debates, the media in particular has picked up really on the two extremes of the other side. It has often painted all gun owners as essentially these boogeyman, you know, who want to stockpile weapons, really throw a middle finger to any law that's up there, open carry, AR fifteens everywhere they go.
Speaker 5:
10:25
You even this idea that the, you know, you need good guys with guns as vigilantes everywhere, everywhere that's, that's out there. I'd argue that it's actually the minority of gun owners who are that way. Yet they've taken up the majority of the conversation, just like it's likely the minority of people who want to ban all guns and get rid of all guns that are there, you know? So, so what, what do you think we should be doing to amplify the voices of that responsibility of the fact that you know, range culture, hunting culture, military culture really is around being vigilant, being responsible and you're practicing a sport. That's fun.
Speaker 4:
11:00
So I, I've said this in a couple of different ways with different audiences. Just curious whether this is my standalone view or not and I don't think it is, but I feel like organizations that are are working to prevent gun violence. I feel like there's a, there's a strong need for them to decide where the line is is I think the, the other side of this debate, right represent largely by the NRA has done a really nice job of saying any infringement is all infringement right? You, you come for one thing under the tent. Got it. And they've done an amazing job of getting that message promoted. And I think if you've heard that message a lot in the different places that you've been as a gun owner, it becomes difficult when you are trying to converse with somebody who's, who's working to prevent gun violence, to know where it, where do you want to stop?
Speaker 4:
11:46
Right. So I, I own an AR 15 I own two of them, not New York city. They're their safe house somewhere else. If you said you wanted take those, would I be okay with it? Probably if I knew where you wanted to stop. Right. So if you tell me I'm what, like to take all your firearms, I'm out. Right? So that's, that's, that's kind of a nonstarter for most gun owners. They've invested. It is, as you say, a culture. It's not just an object, right? It's, it's got cultural attachment to it. But if you said we're going to, we're trying to do something, we want to stop here. I'm invested in that conversation. I'd like to continue that conversation. But I, I think gun violence prevention organizations almost have to come up with an agreement on this is what we would like to do. This is where we're going to stop. And, and that I think is a conversation you could start to get gun owners to lean into a little bit and to start to go, okay, well what, what are you really trying to do here? Cause I think it's a little vague
Speaker 3:
12:39
and I think I'm being clear on why. So one of the things that Brady has seen become increasingly popular across all lines is the end family fire program. Because of the idea that if you are a responsible gun owner, of course you're down for safe storage, you know, and, and of course you're down for following the law in terms of you don't want say a nine year old to have access to, to a firearm. So I think also too, not only saying this is the line, but saying this is why that particular line is there that's backed up would be exceptionally helpful. And so I was wondering if you think there's anything else that, you know, what is the gun violence prevention movement doing as a whole not doing well to get gun owners who are interested in gun violence prevention to the table.
Speaker 4:
13:20
I think they're largely talking to themselves, if that makes any sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting cause I, I've been trying to figure out how comfortable am I going to a gun range, you know, I was joking earlier about wearing a Brady t-shirt, you know, at the gun range, but trying to figure out where, where is that space to start that conversation. I know Brady's, I've had the pleasure of working with some of the team enough folks. Um, and as a high school principal in a middle school principal, both, I've seen the profound power that kids have and breaking through gun owners have kids. I mean I know how my parents started recycling was my brother and I coming home talking about recycling and my parents like what, what is this?
Speaker 3:
13:58
Yeah, you have a few worst days and suddenly no more styrofoams allowed in the house. Yeah,
Speaker 4:
14:02
we're a demanding blue tubs. My parents are trying to retrofit the kitchen counter to figure out where to put the thing. Um, but that's, it's, it's a really unbelievably powerful voice that cuts through a lot of the political tension that cuts through a lot of the, I dunno, the, the preconceived notions around who wants this and who doesn't. But I think there's a number of common sense things talking about, you know, safe storage. I have told this story a few times to gun owners live in an apartment in Manhattan. Um, and one evening I was having dinner with my daughter and somebody tried to break down my apartment door and it's a steel door and I assume they had the wrong apartment. I don't know, maybe some child I suspended years ago, but I don't think so. I don't think that's what it was. But you know, I immediately grabbed my cell phone, moved towards the back and I, I have a handgun that's in a biometric safe, you know, I put my finger up, it went opened, got my daughter behind me and started screaming, please don't come through that door.
Speaker 4:
14:57
I do not want to shoot. You do not come through that door. I do not want to shoot you. And I had to replace the front door. It was caved in and steel door caved in enough. They were definitely coming in to do harm. And I thought about it, you know, it took an extra second and a half. Um, had I had the handgun out and not secured the most likely victims, probably myself or my daughter by securing it. And I don't know, you know, statistically, I don't know where that falls. It still is probably putting a family more at risk than not having it in the apartment at all. But it was as I replayed the situation later and as I've told other folks, like there are safes that you can open that only I can open in seconds, um, that let me keep it secured. But also easy to access should something like that. You know, my lifetime, that'll probably never happen again. You know, the one and only instance where I thought I needed to to grab something and maybe I would have been equally as secure with a baseball bat. I don't know, but that's what I was trained to use and that's what I went to use.
Speaker 5:
15:51
And I think that's such an important part. Like sharing stories like that are such an important part of the conversation because a, it normalizes the gun owners in the conversation, but it also places guns sort of in this universe of risky things we choose to engage with. You know, there, there are a lot of things out there that are risky that we choose to engage within our lives, whether it's driving a car, which is incredibly risky, drinking alcohol, risky, sexual activity, risky. I mean these, these are things that carry risks to them, but we as a community have invested in solutions to mitigate those risks. You know, there are some of them, the industries has taken the lead I automobiles, we have seatbelts, yo, we've got for drinking. There are large social norms. Campaigns are on what responsible drinking actually is. None of them say don't drink.
Speaker 5:
16:41
They say, here's how you do lots of drink responsibly. Right. And even when you think about now adding kids to the mix, I'm sure when you, you know, having a, having a kid, the way that you engage with alcohol changes throughout the kid's life, you know, when they're young and, and toddlers, it's, you don't want them to unintentionally drink all your booze when they're teenagers. You don't want them to intentionally you secure it and lock it to start having those conversations around guns too and the risks associated with them that, you know, keeping them in a biometric safe, which only you can, can access, especially with a young, a young child in the home because kids are curious and want to get into stuff, you know, as, as she gets older or as your life circumstances changing. Continuing to have these conversations about what, where the risks sit, whether it's unintentional shootings, suicides, intentional shootings and being open about that. I think that's a really important place for gun owners to sit and say, yeah, it's risky and here's what we're actually doing to mitigate those risks.
Speaker 4:
17:40
Right. The, I mean the examples you used with cars, right? So the auto industry is involved in the risk management, right? The beverage industry is involved in the risk and I don't, I don't see the same participation from, from gun manufacturers. And that's, that's troubling too, right? There is, you know, we have a massive risk. It's a product that people would like to still purchase the like to still access, we'd like to still use and I feel like they've, they've given up their responsibility in terms of mitigating risk there. Um, as an industry, it seems odd to me that in all these other instances,
Speaker 5:
18:11
well there's some legal restrictions on that are disincentivized. Um, at least for industry. And so that's one of the things when we think about some of these, you have policy ideas that can be more universally appealing to everyone. You, we know that universal background checks, polls incredibly high among, but that's a very low hanging fruit. You know, something else that I think is important to discuss really is how to get gun owners involved in investing in research and safety side of these things because that, you know, that's not taking away the access to own guns. But let's better understand the problem and let's really dig into what these mitigating solutions are that the industry can be part of. Right. So I'd love to hear a little bit of your thoughts on, you know, how to engage gun owners in the more investment, you know, getting them engaged and investing cause that's not taking away guns.
Speaker 4:
19:00
I think. So. I, I, I'm a New York resident. I'm in New York, recently passed new legislation where you're responsible for, uh, your firearm. Um, you're responsible for it to use, um, which means you're also responsible for securing it. Um, and if you've not secured it properly and it's improperly used, you're on the hook too. And I think as a, I don't think that would be a hard sell for an awful lot of gun owners, um, to go. You have, they're not confused about it. They're not confused that they have a lethal instrument. In fact, I think they're less confused than other folks are. They, they, especially hunters know how things die. Um, and they're, you know, they watch movies, you know, ex-military, know what happens there. Um, and, and it's not some, you know, Hollywood production, they actually have seen it with their own eyes. Um, and they understand it all too well maybe, but that I think, I think they understand securing it for that reason.
Speaker 4:
19:53
Um, and I, I don't think you'd have a lot of objection there. I don't think you have a lot of objection over background checks. I don't, I think there are a number of common sense places that you can get gun owners to the table and from there start opening up other conversations and, and going, okay, as an AR 15 really the right platform for what you're trying to do. You know, is that, is that the best home defense weapon? Is that the best hunting platform? Um, and again, I think in most cases you'll, you'll hear you, once you talk it out with folks that know what the weapons do and how they work, I think you'll hear a lot of nos. That's not, I think there are some common points where you can get almost every gun owner, right? So I don't know anybody that I shoot with or relatives who aren't for better background checks. Genuinely I have not pulled any of them and had them go, no, I don't. Every one of them is like, well yeah, that makes sense. Um, so I think you've got a starting point with a broad gun owning community. I've had a little pushback on safe securing, you know, safely securing the weapon. But even there not a lot.
Speaker 3:
20:54
And is that just the argument that if I need it, I can't get to it.
Speaker 4:
20:57
So, and, and that's partly what I've told that story so many times, um, about grabbing mine and a moment of crisis and the ease at which I was able to do that and the difficulty my kid would have or even an intruder would have in getting to it.
Speaker 3:
21:10
Yeah. I'm assuming a biometric safe may shit much harder for your firearm to then be stolen and then used in a crime that could then come back to you could be responsible for. Right.
Speaker 4:
21:18
So I, I, I feel like there's some entry points for a broad gun community, but I, I certainly, I know hunters who aren't fans of, of weapons that hold multiple, multiple rounds. Um, they, they think it's unsporting and I know other hunters who think that that's a completely reasonable platform to use. Um, I just, I feel like within the gun community, the NRA has done such a phenomenal job of saying any encroachment is unacceptable. And then I feel like when the, the anti-gun community speaks about the group as a monolith, they play right into the hands of the NRA because they are saying, yes, see we, we said they think we're all evil, they think we all do this. They think we all do that. Um, and, and I think by, by really promoting fear, you know, they do a phenomenal job of making everybody kind of entrenched. Thank the any sort of infringement is a problem.
Speaker 3:
22:06
Do you think we focus on, because one of the things we had to clarify before we started is how many guns you own. So you own 26. Right? So do you feel like one of the things we may be focused on in the gun violence prevention movement too much is why do people need guns as opposed to why do people want guns? You know, I don't hear a lot of conversations, for example, around people who are like, guns are fun. That is why I have them. Do you, do you think maybe making space though in in the movement where people could admit, look, I own this thing that has the potential to be exceptionally dangerous, but I do so responsibly. Do you think that we need to make room for that or,
Speaker 4:
22:40
yeah, I think people, I'm not sure. It's always a rational conversation, right? So we were joking about guns that are dogs at the outset of this not choking about guns. Um, sometimes dog ownership isn't a rational decision. Right? When you get down to it, I'm now going to spend extra money to love this thing. You know it, there's no part of that. When you actually, if you talk to a robot and it tried to explain dog ownership to them, they're like, well, are you going to eat it?
Speaker 3:
23:09
It's going to cost a lot of money and it's going to pass away before you do. So it's going to really hurt.
Speaker 4:
23:14
Yeah. If it's got the potential to hurt somebody, it doesn't make sense. And yet we are, we are passionate about that. Right? So I, and I, I think there's an awful lot of things that we attach value to that don't logically make sense that if you try to explain it, it's cultural. It's, I do it because it brings me joy. Then you can, how much of human endeavor can we put into that category? Um, you know, I've heard folks be like, why are we spending so much money on the arts? Why are we, you know, because it brings us joy. It brings something value that we think to our lives. Um, I think you could certainly put recreational firearm use into that category. I think folks own guns for different reasons. I have some former law enforcement friends who own a single gun for self defense and that into the list.
Speaker 4:
24:01
Right? They don't feel the need to own multiple guns. They don't modify the guns, they don't change them. They get whatever. Uh, my wife has an aunt who was former, uh, Georgia Bureau of investigation who has her one service weapon. Um, she doesn't particularly care for guns. Um, but she keeps that one and then I think there are hunters who are earning from different purposes. So I think you could open the conversation up. But I think trying to understand the gun owning community would be helpful too because you're talking to a lot of disparate folks who I don't think are represented well by a single organization.
Speaker 5:
24:31
And that's, you know, that's something that I really appreciate you bringing it up. I mean, one of the, one of the things that I'm really trying to dig into in, uh, the research that I've been doing both for end family fire and because I can't quit academia as much as I try. Um, let's those and just keep coming back for ya. Um, you know, but really is the fact that so much of the research I think really is ill served for for two things. One is a huge bifurcation into gun owners versus non gun owners, but also really a normative bias in this research that is always asking why don't gun owners do X? Why don't gun owners support X? And, and putting this square rather than trying to say, well why do gun owners or where you know, what, what the motivation sits behind it. And so this idea that there isn't just one reason, you know, there's not just one reason why somebody has a dog, you know, there's not one there service animals, there are companion animals, they are seen as children by people. All these different reasons. And so I appreciate you being here to represent, I think a point of view that is essential to have in the movement and really, really essential to push our conversation forward. Sure.
Speaker 3:
25:41
So for gun owners like you, so not a monolith, you're just speaking for just you. Why, what do you wish you could see change in the U S in regards to this conversation? About gun violence prevention. A little unfair because you've touched on a lot of things here today with us, but if you're asking the big dream, yeah, what's the big dream?
Speaker 4:
26:00
This will make me horrifically unpopular.
Speaker 3:
26:03
Welcome to the club fair. I'll send you my Twitter DMS. We can have a moment.
Speaker 4:
26:07
I guess in my mind, I, I break this conversation up across the spectrum, right within, within the American public, the gun owning public where on one end you have folks that are, it was talk gun owners for amendment, the folks that own guns in the purposes they own them for, right. So there are hunters who own only, you know, guns that you wouldn't be the last thing you would turn to for self defense or to commit a crime. They're all the way to the other end. Um, you know, militia groups that are anti-government, that Aleve adamantly that the founding fathers wanted us to have, you know, weapons so that we could ever throw the government in, in that circumstance that that was what was required. And I feel like on that end, there aren't many folks that think that that should be normalized. Um, and then I feel like somewhere in the middle are folks who think that you have a right to defend yourself.
Speaker 4:
26:59
Um, and I think if the conversation went to a space and I don't know how to do it with the second amendment, genuinely, I've, I've spent God knows how many days thinking about this. Um, what would it look like if there was an amendment that said in America you have the right to self defense and said, that's where we think we can live. Um, and self defense is not a weapon that fires off a lot of rounds at high speed. Right. And that self-defense is a regulated, right. Right. And like a driver's license, like something else where we were registering our weapons where we were, but if I knew that that was a right, that was also protected. Um, if I thought nobody would encroach on my right to self defense or to go hunting or for sporting purposes other than reasonable regulation. Um, and I, I think if I could find a space where we said, okay, I'm, I'm less concerned about calling a thing an assault rifle.
Speaker 4:
27:50
I'm concerned about the number of rounds that it holds and how fast it shoots. Does that make sense for self defense purposes? Um, I'm rambling a bit, but I think my, my absolute dream in this space would be to have an amendment that protected what I think the gun owning community actually stands for. And that's self-defense. And I think then regulating out guns that don't make sense in that arena, that, that we keep seeing used over and over again. But abandoning the second amendment without a different protection also seems like a nonstarter even for me personally. So I guess that that would be my ultimate dream.
Speaker 2:
28:24
I mean, I think you said that you rambled, but you really didn't. I think it's just that it's an exceptionally complicated problem. So any answer, even if it's pie in the sky is going to be exceptionally complicated too. Well, and thank you so much, Mark, for coming in. I hope you realize that you've now opened yourself up to us stealing your time and time and again, Tim to make you come on. Thank you very much. This was fun. Thanks. Well, and you know I can't have an educator here and not share an unbelievable but story that deals with a school. So here we go. For this particular segment, we have an older story, one that underscores why guns don't belong in schools. Well, giving a gun safety lecture to a group of Florida high school students, a drug enforcement administration agent accidentally shot himself in the leg with a gun he thought was unloaded and that he had told the class wasn't loaded.
Speaker 2:
29:13
What's worse? This happened shortly after him saying quote, I'm the only one in this room professional enough that I know of to carry this Glock 40 the video was then released by a parent of one of the students and wildly shared around the internet thanks to the power of YouTube. I've seen it and there's a solid chance you've probably seen it on clip shows too. To be fair. He's pretty tough because after shooting himself in the leg, the agent tried to continue his presentation by saying, quote, see how that accident happened? It can happen to you and you can be blown away. So guys never play with guns and quilt. I mean, good sentiment. I want stop teaching a class because I felt a little dizzy. So you know, he's a tough man. But then while limping, he tried to bring out another gun to show to the class, but the crowd protested. He tried to assure them that this second weapon was unloaded, but he ended his talk. When the crowd continue to object, this just goes to show even trained professionals can make mistakes with guns. They really do have no place in the classroom.
Speaker 2:
30:19
Continuing on with school news, we have something that's sadly only evil to start with. Last week news came out that in the sagas high school shooting where two students were killed and three were injured, that faculty and staff use to bleeding control kits. Now, these kits were a recent addition to the district and came equipped with tourniquets, um, compression bandages, blood clotting. Gaz, you know, they're all designed to prevent extreme blood loss. These kits have been pushed in school districts across the country ever since 2017 when Georgia started a statewide initiative to arm schools with quote, stop the bleed kits. We actually mentioned this on one of our podcasts this year. Texas, Arkansas and Indiana each passed a legislation to put them into schools with Arkansas going so far is to make it a law that public school students have to be trained on these kids as part of a health curriculum in order to graduate from high school.
Speaker 2:
31:18
It's kind of prepare for a school shooting in order to get credit for health class and the case of sagas high school. However, these, you know, really important kits were provided after two students who were afraid of school shootings fundraised to keep two in the school. So cool. Kai, who was on here earlier, quote, on one hand, anything we do to save lives is good, but on the other fundamentally it is allowing lawmakers and officials to ignore the root cause of gun violence. And it's really great that these kids were there and available, but it's awful that these kids had to exist in the first place and that kids were scared enough to have to fund them on their own. Meanwhile, kids in Philadelphia continue to be scared. Gun violence has been and continues to be a problem in Philadelphia. One that seems to be affecting young people more and more.
Speaker 2:
32:11
So far. In this year alone, 110 children have been injured or killed as a result of gun violence on Tuesday night, community members gathered at a town hall meeting that was focused on preventing gun violence that's been impacting the city's youth in a, in a particularly hard way, one up church who is with the nonprofit new options, more opportunities, I'd quote, we see there's a lot of normalcy when it comes to crime. When it comes to death, wearing the t-shirts, going to vigils, it's become the norm and it's become socially acceptable even by the youth and quote and isn't that awful? Now that it's become normal for kids now it's normal to be afraid in school. It's normal to have to go to funerals before you go to graduation parties. It's, it's really, really sad. And now our last little news update I think shows the fact that gun violence has been a problem in this country for a really long time and continues to be.
Speaker 2:
33:08
So last Sunday was the 39th anniversary of John Lennon's murder. If you don't know who John Lennon is, I presume that you've been living with them mole people for awhile, but he was a very famous singer, songwriter, his widow Yoko Ono, took to social media to pay tribute to him in particular. She tweeted out, quote, every day a hundred Americans are shot and killed with guns. We are turning this beautiful country into a war zone together. Let's bring back America. The green land of peace and quote attached though to the church tweets was also this famous image that depicts the pair of glasses that John Lennon was wearing when he was killed, where one half is covered with blood. It's a really iconic image and a really sad one. Text above the glasses. Read that more than 1.4 million people in the United States were shot and killed with guns since Lennon's assassination. So in the spirit of John Lennon and the spirit of all of the people that we lose every day, 100 people a day to gun violence, let's try to imagine a future for ourselves. Where, where we all people who own guns, people who are great at guns, or people like me who you know, tried to learn how to shoot to have a bonding thing with their dad. And it turns out they're very, very bad at it. You know, let's, let's imagine a world where we all come together and end this epidemic of gun violence.
Speaker 1:
34:28
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:
34:29
thanks for listening. As always, Brady's lifesaving work and Congress, the courts and communities across the country is made possible. Thanks to you. For more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcast. Come see us online@bradyunited.org or follow us on social at Brady bus. Be brave and remember, take action not side.
Speaker 1:
35:11
[inaudible] [inaudible].
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