Red, Blue, and Brady

19: Want to Really Thank a Veteran?

November 11, 2019
Red, Blue, and Brady
19: Want to Really Thank a Veteran?
Chapters
Red, Blue, and Brady
19: Want to Really Thank a Veteran?
Nov 11, 2019
Brady

JJ is joined by Kyleanne Hunter, who in addition to her work as VP of programs for Brady, is a US Marine Corps combat veteran who served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan as an AH-1W “Super Cobra” attack pilot. They're chatting today with Ted Bonar, a clinical psychologist specializing in veterans, PTSD, depression, and gun safety. The topics range today, from--"Do veterans liked to be thanked for their service? Is Veteran's day triggering? How can you have a conversation with a veteran about gun safety? Can we talk about mental health in a clear way?"

In this episode, we cover: 

  • why Veteran's day can be tough on active-duty military and veterans;
  • why thanking veterans for their service is complicated;
  • how to ask the hard questions about depression, PTSD, and suicide;
  • and how to keep those we love, and ourselves, safe from gun violence. 

JJ and Ky also discuss what happens when guns are raffled off in schools (spoiler: it's not good!), a pretty big GVP hero, and why we need to talk more about suicide when we talk about gun violence. 

Some of the links mentioned in this episode :
"the Truth about Suicide and Guns."
"How to Support Survivors and People Impacted by Gun Violence.
"Kyleanne Hunter: As a Marine, I was trained to handle guns. As a veteran, it's my duty to help prevent tragedies like Thousand Oaks."

Similar episodes:
Minisode 1:
Kyleanne Hunter on what is family fire, how to end it, and how Forest Gump is surprisingly accurate

For more information on Brady, follow us on social
@Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their longstanding legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Show Notes Transcript

JJ is joined by Kyleanne Hunter, who in addition to her work as VP of programs for Brady, is a US Marine Corps combat veteran who served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan as an AH-1W “Super Cobra” attack pilot. They're chatting today with Ted Bonar, a clinical psychologist specializing in veterans, PTSD, depression, and gun safety. The topics range today, from--"Do veterans liked to be thanked for their service? Is Veteran's day triggering? How can you have a conversation with a veteran about gun safety? Can we talk about mental health in a clear way?"

In this episode, we cover: 

  • why Veteran's day can be tough on active-duty military and veterans;
  • why thanking veterans for their service is complicated;
  • how to ask the hard questions about depression, PTSD, and suicide;
  • and how to keep those we love, and ourselves, safe from gun violence. 

JJ and Ky also discuss what happens when guns are raffled off in schools (spoiler: it's not good!), a pretty big GVP hero, and why we need to talk more about suicide when we talk about gun violence. 

Some of the links mentioned in this episode :
"the Truth about Suicide and Guns."
"How to Support Survivors and People Impacted by Gun Violence.
"Kyleanne Hunter: As a Marine, I was trained to handle guns. As a veteran, it's my duty to help prevent tragedies like Thousand Oaks."

Similar episodes:
Minisode 1:
Kyleanne Hunter on what is family fire, how to end it, and how Forest Gump is surprisingly accurate

For more information on Brady, follow us on social
@Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their longstanding legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Support the show (https://www.bradyunited.org/donate)

Speaker 1:
0:08
[inaudible].
Speaker 2:
0:09
This is the legal disclaimer where we tell you that the views, thoughts and opinion shared on this podcast belongs solely to us, the people who are talking to you right now and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note that this podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find disturbing. It's okay cause we find [inaudible]
Speaker 1:
0:27
disturbing too. [inaudible] everyone
Speaker 2:
0:44
to red, blue and Brady which is the podcast all about gun violence prevention and you clicked on this so you should already know if you are here to learn about football and sports. I am sorry to say not today. Today though I am joined not by JP, still out being a grassroots organizer as you heard in last week's mini-sode at the time of this filming, but I am joined by Kylie and Hunter who I call with love Kai and I am, I am so excited that she's here because we're talking about something I think sort of near and dear to your heart, especially Chi, very near and dear to my heart and thank you so much for having me on yet again. Any, any time. This issue that is near and dear to Chi's heart is the issue of veterans and suicide and veterans and gun violence.
Speaker 2:
1:31
While it's personally a huge issue for me, it's also just a large issue nationally. We know that when compared to the civilian population, veterans are more than twice as likely to take their own life than civilians. And for female veterans in particular, that number can be up to four times as likely to take your own life. I didn't realize it was that high. And if we look at suicide by firearm in particular, you a female veteran is six to seven times more likely to take her life by a firearm than a civilian female is. And so this, this issue really this relationship between guns and suicide and the unique relationship and the really the complexity that veterans veterans have with guns, you know, this idea that sometimes it makes us more comfortable or we're really familiar around them. So it's often maybe less of a sign to our friends and loved ones.
Speaker 2:
2:29
We're more engaging with the guns. And it might be to say you like, yeah, if I just start out of nowhere bringing one around with me. It's a little bit different when, when you come back from deployment, right. And we have guns around us, you know, that, that this is, this is an issue that while it impacts everyone, it really uniquely impacts veterans and veterans. Suicide is really one of those issues that crosses generations know we have Korean war veterans, Vietnam veterans post nine 11 veterans all just as likely to unfortunately take their own life by firearm. And the one piece that's consistent is access to guns and isolation. That's the kind of, it's really important I think to remember our older veterans right now that this is gun violence in particular because we have so much amazing youth energy around the get out the vote effort. It's really the raising awareness to gun violence. You know, we forget that we have a older population and especially when suicide is concerned that are very at at risk and we're not going to solve gun violence. We don't reach that part of the population. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
3:36
And so to, to answer and talk about the super complicated but super important issue with clinical psychologist Ted boner. Ted is a specialist's dealing with military and veteran concerns around PTSD, depression, suicide and done safety. He's also just a pretty awesome person and I'm glad I got to meet then later and are unbelievable. But segment we are talking about friends of the NRA raffling off guns in schools. Kai just made a facial expression like Macaulay Culkin. And then finally we're wrapping up with our gun violence prevention hero and I know you want to know who that is but you have to keep listening to find out.
Speaker 4:
4:14
[inaudible]
Speaker 5:
4:17
hi, it's Ky Hunter, vice president of programs at Brady who you've heard from a few times now and who is always phenomenal. And then we have a new friend here in studio today. Hi, my name is Ted Boehner. I'm a clinical psychologist based out of Columbus, Ohio. So one of the reasons why we, when Chi first said that you'd be coming into the Brady offices, we were so excited to have you as, especially as we go into veterans day, which I think can be triggering for a lot of people and a lot of the messaging that comes out surrounding veterans day. We really wanted to have a conversation about PTSD, about mental health in general about the end family fire program and just sort of, I think a combo of, you know, we have a lot of listeners that are active duty or retired military. We also have a lot of folks like myself who don't have any experience with military life who I think would want to be better friends and family and allies to those folks. Yeah, absolutely. So
Speaker 6:
5:08
you're jumping on in, in your time as a clinical psychologist. I know you've spent quite a bit of time helping the veteran community and I think often people see veterans day as a sign of appreciation, but it can also, asJ mentioned, be the, be triggering, also be a time that feels very isolating. Um, just I think to, to kick things off before we get into discussing more about the, the eff side of things, what are some of your tips for people who want to be you good supporters of our military and, uh, you can often be enthusiastic but maybe haven't had as much experience, you know, ways to respectfully engage our veteran community around veterans day without unintentionally triggering or bringing up any negative emotion. Yeah, I
Speaker 7:
5:58
think it's a, it's a great question and it can be tricky. Um, and you know, I want to be careful. I don't want to speak on behalf of veterans because I'm not one, I'm a civilian, right? Uh, I got into the work because I love working with military and veterans. That matters a great deal to man. I, I decided a long time ago that that was going to be my direction. Um, but what that meant was I had a lot to learn, right. And I had a lot to learn about. Um, what is, what tends to be important and the fact that that can be different for any individual. Right. Um, so I guess the reason I'm saying that, uh, Kai in response to your specific question of how to, how to help when, um, it might be triggering, um, for a tough time of year or a w you know, why veterans day might be confusing or complex for some people.
Speaker 7:
6:48
Um, you know, in my experience there can be, um, for a veteran, for a military individual, a military service member, um, that, uh, you know, I don't want special treatment. I don't want recognition. I don't need a badge or you know, just because like I chose this life and it's what I did and I don't need the recognition for it. And at the same time, the flip side is it's a unique population that has a very special experience that not many people have the very, that no civilian has, right? And so there's a split, right? So that there can be, you know, I don't need to be recognize it, you know, as a story and why. And then at another level of a person, it's why doesn't anybody understand me? Can people understand and recognize who I am as people? Right? So that's a conflict that plays off each other.
Speaker 7:
7:52
It's don't give me special attention and Oh, somebody can be isolated and feel like nobody understands them. And at the same time, I don't want it to be recognized just for that. So I think it's okay for civilians to know. You can ask questions, you can express appreciation. I am always very careful not to thank a veteran for their service, simply to thank a veteran, meaning I don't want, I don't want that to be just a reflex that ends up being meaningless. I don't want that to be, hi, how are you? Oh, and thank you for your service. Because in my experience, I think veterans might say, you know, like, why are you giving me that platitude? I will say it, but I want to say it in the context of a relationship that I have with somebody that I know a little bit about what they've been through and where they've been and why their story is different than mine. And that I appreciate it. And at that point at the right time, I can offer a much more meaningful thanks and gratitude for somebody's service, but I try not to do it as a knee jerk reaction because I've found that some people are like, yeah, that can turn somebody off. To me. I think that's actually, that is
Speaker 6:
8:56
incredibly important and powerful when we think about how how we interact you as a society around our veteran community that thank you for your service has become essentially a like, Oh, hi and I can cut off a conversation. Rather than using it for a bridge to understand somebody to ask them more about why they joined or or what they, they did that. It does make it much more meaningful when you get people who want to engage in and relate on a, on a human. So as veteran's day comes vote,
Speaker 7:
9:24
I think we might have more opportunities for those kinds of conversations. You put on that uniform and we civilians can decide to not treat somebody like another human. It's like, Oh well we're just going to treat you as a uniform. Well, we can actually interact with people in uniform as human beings. Right.
Speaker 6:
9:42
You put characteristics on with the clothing, but I can see how that would be both. You know, it's putting a spotlight on someone will being incredibly isolating at the same time.
Speaker 7:
9:52
I'd be interested in your perspective, having worn the uniform, how do people treat you differently?
Speaker 6:
9:57
It's, it's a very interesting, you know, I think that the isolating spotlight is something that is incredibly real for so many of us and it's often a almost like triple bind of an isolating spotlight. And I think as the military is actually becoming more diverse and you are, you're seeing more women, more minority religions, more queer people in the military where there's this simultaneous like you, you stand out. Yet your profession is also one too to blend in. One really of service, and I've talked about to several people before, you're, one of the things in the military that's so much part of the ethos is that it actually is a complete team and we can't do anything without anybody else. And individualism is, is not something we're used to like we're not used to being sued individually praised our, like we all have to be incredibly good at what we do to meet mission.
Speaker 6:
10:50
And while the the military is getting more and more diverse, it's also becoming a smaller and smaller percentage of the United States population. And so it's a bit of a spotlight and I think that isolation of sense of like, Oh well thank you for your service, you're, you're out there. Makes us also feel very unapproachable. It can very much highlight, I think a lot of the insecurities because while myself and just about everybody I know who's worn the uniform is incredibly proud of our service and our team and who we are. We've also had a lot of things we have done that we actually, regret isn't even the right word, but that have caused us a lot of pain. And it's a, it's a pain that when we're put on isolating pedestals, it's often de-humanize that pain and that trauma that we feel in some of the confliction of, you know, we're very proud of what we've done. But we also had to do things that were really, really hard, morally, physically, spiritually, whatever, whatever that side is. When you sort of reduce a person to a uniform, it denies them. The ability
Speaker 7:
11:59
to Greece as a psychologist in, you know, that that's something that could come up in therapy a lot. Like if somebody's been through something, either something has been done to them that's been horrific. Or they have gone through something horrific and maybe done something horrific to another, right? Even an enemy, right? In combat, et cetera. And then veteran's day comes along and you can be put on a stage and be thanked and celebrated. But inside deep inside that individual, it's like I'm being celebrated for what? Right. That's, and that's when we start to get into the ideas of moral injury, which is, you know, it can be connected to PTSD, it can also be on it's own, but that's a V that's a really profound, like how do you hold both experiences at the same time? Right. And I won't judge either of these experiences. I won't judge any of them. Like, these are the things that happen, right. It doesn't happen for every service member. It hasn't happened to every veteran, but, but for those who wrestle with, um, those kinds of, um, both what has happened, who I am or what has happened in my past, who am I now, who was I then, who am I now and what's happening? There's a celebration in a band and I, and everybody's thanking me yeah.
Speaker 6:
13:08
To bring this around full circle and clearly something that's incredibly impact or meaningful in my own life. And actually what brought me into the whole GVP movement is you, you combine the PTSD, the moral injury, the celebrations, the loud noises. Also with the fact that many veterans, again, not, not all, but myself included, have a very interesting mixed relationship with guns. Yeah. And that for, I know after some of my deployments when I came home, I just wanted to have guns around me because it felt very comfortable. Like I had guns with me everywhere I went. I was then dropped in the middle of a city who I was actually like PCs a week after I got back deployment to start a very high profile Derrickson job. And I was like, well, everything feels foreign and weird and bizarre. And so, you know, what's really comfortable is like having a pistol because I had one on my hip all the time.
Speaker 6:
14:03
And that's just a thing that's like a, Oh look, here's a thing that's normal and that can, I think, start to bring up, you know, but then when you get isolated and you have guns around and people who don't understand these, these sort of double binds of isolation and celebration and celebration causing more isolation plus guns, right? Yeah. You can get into some more trouble. So I'm, I'm curious like what are, what are some ways, again, some tips to really ask those hard questions? Because I know for me, somebody actually asking the hard questions is what was meaningful, but I think we're often afraid to,
Speaker 7:
14:42
um, I mean there's a couple of different things here, you know, like what kind of questions do we need to ask? Uh, is it different? Is is how I'm thinking about this. And you know, sometimes I'm carrying a pistol on your hip is a Tran is a, is a matter of transition, right? It's a matter of transitioning out of the military and into civilian life. And that's something that's, that's common, right? That you are armed. You know, as a service member and as a civilian, you generally won't be right. It may not necessarily be PTSD. I have to protect myself because of a symptom. It and it's, and it may be like it or it may not have anything to do with like it, it may be this is what I did, this is what I do. I am a service member and I have a sidearm.
Speaker 7:
15:29
And so making that transition in the civilian life on that level, that's a challenge right? When it [inaudible] and that's a real challenge. Um, and it's also a very different, most times I think it can be combined, but it can be most times different from is this PTSD and I'm having guns with me, not because it's what I do, but because it's comfortable because the world is dangerous and I need them to protect me at all times. Now of course, there's an element of truth to that. Like we do live in a dangerous world and I can guarantee that something won't happen. But the need to carry your gun with you everywhere you go or have multiple around you at home while you're isolated at all times, that's a very different level of the world is dangerous. And, and I need these around me, right? Um, an important piece here is that there's a way to recalibrate all of that, right?
Speaker 7:
16:30
That this is not a hopeless situation, that PTSD is eminently treatable to one of the most treatable conditions that we have. And I think that there's some mythology. I know there's some mythology about that, that if you have PTSD, you will always have PTSD. And that has to be your identity. And there's a lot of reasons for that and I don't devalue those thoughts and why those, why that myth exists. And while I value that PD, like here's the fact is the PTSD is treatable and so how do we reach out to a veteran who is conditioned of PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder is combining with I need my guns around and I'm in a kind of a dangerous place personally. And how do we reach out to that person that those are the questions that I think about. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, one of the considerations as we're going into veterans day is, you know, because service members are becoming a smaller and smaller percentage of our, of our population, um, transitioning out can often be incredibly isolating and not being around you. It's at one or the other. I think sides that can be a vulnerable time as you go from being surrounded by likeminded people in like action to people all the time, to now your out wherever
Speaker 6:
17:50
it is that your, your living working and more and more, you know, you're, you're isolated from that community that you've had for, for a long time. And so I think, uh, even just raising these issues of how do you start meaningful human connections, how do you say you're, we're, we're not, we're more than a, you know, a uniform. We're more than a thing to be thanked one day, but actually taking some time, it sounds like a bit of a PSA and take some time. But you know, your [inaudible] but, but that, that is, that is a, it's very easy to reduce a, a minority population to a thing. Um, and so I think that time's important. But, um, what are some ways to help engage people to encourage them to, to get treatment and especially, you know, one of the things when we talk about being around guns a lot, especially in the suicide realm of you, the easy access to guns turns.
Speaker 6:
18:48
What's often a temporary crisis into a permanent tragedy. And so I think if there's something we can really encourage the audience to do is, is to work to prevent those permanent tragedies and work to engage people. And the fact that most people are actual clinical psychologists out there, how, how, how are some ways to sort of navigate those tough conversations to encourage people to get the help that they want that aren't the same? I mean, as a veteran, I will like just go smack my fellow veterans upside the head and be like, go get help you bonehead.
Speaker 5:
19:21
And, and for my, you know, so I would never, I mean maybe you [inaudible] cause I love you dearly, right? So, but if it were just like a coworker, how do I go to my dad as some cases or my brother or my spouse and say, Hey, like I'm getting, I'm getting worried. And I know that a lot of your identity has been forced to be at this idea that you're a protector and you're tough, but I'm worried how do you, and have those conversations.
Speaker 7:
19:49
Well, I like how you just said that, right? Yeah. You're protected and you're tough and I'm worried about you and I'm concerned like I'm worried about what's been going on. I want to check in with you. Right. That's a really powerful opening statement right now that can take some practice. And I think, and there's questions that, that move on from there. You know, I'm really worried about you dad. Right? And, and I'm wondering if we can talk about it like just being open and honest about it now if we're talking about it and then it starts to get like you can ramp up a level from there. Right. And if this starts to be a mental health crisis, um, you know, saying at some point, and this takes some practice, but at some point in the conversation, right, we can ask as civilians as not as a mental health professional, not as a psychologist, as a daughter, as a friend, as a coworker, what have you been thinking about killing yourself?
Speaker 7:
20:41
Like we can ask that question that matters. It doesn't increase the chance of somebody killing themselves or dying by suicide decreases it. That can then lead into, do you have a gun right now this gets into, um, if this needs to combined with the earlier conversation we had, if we're talking about military, if we're talking about somebody whose identity happens to include, I have a service weapon, right? And I have guns to keep me, um, feel comfortable, right? And feel less anxious. How do we have the conversation saying, well, you know, I, I wonder if we can talk about whether, you know, having a gun right now as is a good idea, that gun by your nightstand, right? Is that, I wonder if we can talk about, you know, if, if there's a friend that can hold onto that for you. It's a harder conversation and we need to practice it.
Speaker 7:
21:34
Um, but they're all in the game. We're talking about somebody's life, right? Those are hard conversations. Um, but I think they're imperative. I think they're vital. I think we all have to practice them. So we civilians, we in this country, we in this culture really need to practice that conversation as applied to gun ownership. That I don't want to take your guns away forever, right? Um, if somebody has PTSD, I want to be able to treat PTSD, right? And because maybe they don't need to have so many guns around when they can be safely stored, right? If there's no problem and the guns are stored safely, fabulous. Right? Now we can talk about other things, but I think it needs to kind of move up the chain in what we talk about when we're worried about somebody
Speaker 6:
22:20
as a veteran, though, again, I'm not speaking for all in this, in this capacity, but as, as one, I think this is an important, important conversation to have and especially one to think about really what it means as we're going into two veterans day. One of the things I know that's often isolating for veterans is this feeling like, yes, we have sacrificed a lot. We have done a lot and you say thank you one day, but what do you, what are you actually doing to show that you care? This is a place for a conversation to say, you know, I recognize the, the pain and the trauma that you had to go through to sacrifice to serve us. Let me do something to help you. And this is really a way that there is, you know, a temporary, much like you've had too much to drink. Let me have to take the keys. So you'll live to fight another day. This is a similar thing. Like let me, let me take the lethal means you can actually get the help. So I think to the, you have PTSD is treatable, but you gotta be alive to have it treated and, and here's a way that you can help.
Speaker 5:
23:24
And so I think that then that probably answers the question I'm about to ask, which is, we've also talked to a lot of first responders who go through similar yet distinctly different issues. And one of the things that's come up with that has been the full, if I give up my gun or I go into treatment, if I'm still active, if this is my career and my harming my
Speaker 6:
23:46
job and my harming this thing that you know, provides her myself, provides for my family, police officers will say, if I go on for treatment, I'm giving up my badge and my gun firefighters will say, I'm hanging up my boots and my hat. You know, how, how do we end that
Speaker 7:
24:00
sort of misconception? Well, I don't know that I can end it. Right. Um, I can, uh, you know, I'm going to own my perspective on this, that I'm going to answer this from the perspective of a mental health professional and a concerned citizen friend, family member. It's a human being is that you're not going to keep your clearance if you die by suicide. Right? And, and so if somebody is in a crisis where they might be ending their life, I will prioritize that. Now how I have that conversation, I am, I don't have any intention, nor do I devalue the importance of clearance or a job or a career or, you know, it matters to me to be this person and I have to hold on to it. So I'm not suggesting that it's simple. Um, I, I have decided that that's, that I will place that in priority, right?
Speaker 7:
25:00
Like, like I'll try to focus on it as an and not a about, right. It's, and I'm really worried about your right now, right? Because, um, right now, like, I, I, I'm not an expert in your career. I'm not an expert in, uh, I'm not a firearm expert. I'm not an expert in any of, you know, some, uh, of a lot of the things we're talking about. I do know that you're in trouble right now and I'm worried about you. And so I wanna say, how, how can we kind of reduce this from crisis level to something we can, you know, get through safely. And that means we have to do something about, um, guns that aren't stored safely.
Speaker 6:
25:40
And I think the other side is that from a, I did speak from the military side, I'm very confident it's similar in law enforcement and firefighters, is that if you do seek mental health care, you will not lose your job. But as Ted mentioned, if you die, you will lose your job. Um, so the, the act of seeking care is not career disqualifying. Now you might be temporarily reassigned while you get treatment, but it's no different than if you break your leg, you're going to be temporary reassigned while you're in physical therapy. You so, so, so to that, I think one of the things that's incredibly important is that those of us who have sought care, who had seen the importance of seeking, seeking care, speak out about it and talk about how the fact that it's, it doesn't mean that you're weak. It doesn't mean you can't be a protector.
Speaker 6:
26:35
It doesn't mean that you're, you failed at your job or you're not good at something because you need to go get care for an injury. And that's essentially that. That is what you are doing. And whether it is combat, not combat, whether it's just fighting with your spouse, whether it's stress from a young child at home or moving every two years, whatever it is, these are very real things that can be treated. You know, we, we wouldn't look down on someone again if they broke their leg and had to endure several years of physical therapy to get back to the physical strength that they were
Speaker 7:
27:12
or they broke their leg. So we need to start thinking about it the same way. And I, I w I don't want to add another thought. You know, when we're talking about a crisis and in any of these hypothetical's that we're talking about, like what if this, it's tempting in the hypotheticals. It's tempting in real life, uh, to think I've got to solve all of these problems right now I have to say everything perfectly so that somebody understands that maybe they won't lose their career and it's, and I have to solve it for my dad, for my friend, and that's my spouse. And you know, the person in crisis might be thinking, I have to solve all of this right now and the person that might be trying to help us as well now I have, and I would really, I would offer an alternative thought is that we can slow this down.
Speaker 7:
28:04
We in, I think we need to like, well, I don't know how to solve all of that. I don't write, I can't speak to that. What I can say is I'm concerned. I love you and I'm worried about what's happening right now. Look, these are real things. Uh, and it may affect your career. I don't know. I don't know. Right. Um, but I know I'm worried right now and you're, you're telling me you're thinking about suicide and you're telling me that, um, that you put your pistol in your mouth last night because these are the things that people will say. And if somebody says that, well, I, I get it. That your career is important. I get your clearances important. I re I really care about that. So can we take that a step at a time? Can we work through that? And right now, let's see if we can get some help because this, this sounds pretty scary, right?
Speaker 7:
28:53
So I wanted to add that, like, we can't solve all of the problems in the middle of a crisis, but you know what? Someone's got a broken leg. We got to go and we triage, yeah. For triage. How do you feel about then something like an extreme risk protection order? You know, I live in the state of Ohio, we don't have them. So I think it's all about the process and it's all about the implementation, right? That I think the word extreme is, and therefore a reason that, um, as a mental health professional, um, not only do I not want to abuse an extreme risk protection order, um, I probably can't. And that's a good thing. I want to protect people's rights. It's not about that. It's about what's happening in a crisis now. Right? It's, you know, there are a couple of things that are really, um, as a mental health provider, I look at as last resort, um, interventions and last resort interventions for me are hospitalizations in any kind of legal proceeding.
Speaker 7:
29:59
Right. Um, they should be last because in my profession, my skillset should be how do we get through this and deescalate a crisis, um, before taking away one's rights. Inpatient hospitalization is taking away somebody's rights. It's take, it takes away somebody's autonomy, right? Primarily we take away their free will, they can't leave. Right? Um, I will have that as a last resort. There is a stigma, misperception, myth, whatever you want to call it, that, um, it's easy to hospitalize somebody in that I'm looking to do that. I'm actually like that as the last thing I want to do. I need to be prepared to do it to save somebody's life. Um, if somebody is an imminent threat to harm themselves, but I'm not looking to do it and I would look at extreme risk protection orders with it at the same level. In fact, they're probably connected. Right? And it would depend on the ins and outs of the state law. And I know there's variants in, in, in Ohio. There's, right, it's, it's, it's in the legislation right now. So we know that extreme risk protection orders can save lives. We know that. Um, so I think we need them and I think that we need to look at it clearly. Um, and we needs to come with education and the proper messaging that that doesn't mean we're coming for the guns because that's not what it's about. We're trying to save lives.
Speaker 5:
31:26
Yeah. I think that the, the messaging is big because when, when I hear you say something like someone disclosing that like last night there was a gun in their mouth and the triage, the triage for me, like as a civilian as not a mental health worker is, you know, this is my best friend telling me this is all right. We, we got a, whatever we are doing today is done. We're going to go sit at a dairy queen and we're going to have a conversation for however long we need. But whatever happens at the end of this conversation, I'm not sending you home by yourself with guns in the house. So whether it's you giving me the keys and we go move it, or I call your debt, something is happening and I could see myself if I lived in a state that had an extreme risk protection order, that that might even be a step of if, if the conversation's not happening.
Speaker 5:
32:08
Yeah. You know, if we were standing on a bridge, I wouldn't leave you on the bridge either. And so if I have to call someone to have the bridge removed, then this, that's what I'm going to do. And in that moment, I think you bring up a really important point, J J is just the fact that you're not leaving people alone is where the end of this, this comes from. And I think that there are, you're there, there are two different perspectives. There's one, the thing that every single one of us can do is to make sure that people aren't isolated in that opportunity. And then there's the mental health
Speaker 6:
32:40
professional side that have the tools, you know, in your case, like the engineer to be able to fix the way the bridges were. You know that, that we, we know what lethal means our friends might have access to. And in those moments of crisis, we, you know, we, we do the hard work to make sure that they don't have immediate access to them so they can actually get the help to sort of deconstruct
Speaker 5:
33:04
why, what should I be doing should not just as a, as a civilian, not just on veterans day, but all days to make sure that like the veterans in my life are, are safe and well taken care of. Well, I think you've already said it right? What's your relationship right? How do you nurture the relationship and care for the relationship? Right. Like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
33:25
[inaudible]
Speaker 3:
33:27
I think into our unbelievable, but segment, I have something that I know Kai will find, not necessarily unbelievable in the sense of like she can't believe what's happening, but unbelievable in the sense of like the way your mom is when you roll in at two o'clock in the morning. Like really this is the choice that you chose to make. So the NRA foundation hosts what it calls friends of the NRA events, which is a fundraising arm of the NRA, and they oftentimes rattle off firearms in addition to other items to raise money for programs such as Hunter education and competitive shooting teams. I'm actually cool with that sort of thing. That's great. As long as they're ensuring that the firearms they raffle off go to individuals who can legally possess them. But these raffles are huge. They're so big that in the state of Washington, the NRA foundation is seeking to increase price values to over $500,000 surpassing the state's $300,000 annual limit for prizes. But that's not even the unbelievable part. Cause maybe you can say, okay fine. They're like auctioning off a golden goblet to raise money
Speaker 1:
34:36
for some small hunted production shit. Why not buy some of the raffles are being held in schools now, Kai, you can't see it, but she's working at one of these events recently garnered attention when guns and high capacity magazines were being raffled off in the Kentucky high school gym and the actual wet burns weren't physically Warburg.
Speaker 3:
35:00
The actual weapons weren't actually physically present this year, although they have been in past years. Apparently now the idea was that it would be offensive, so just photos of them were there. That was made due to parent complaints because a nearby Kentucky school had a shooting that left two students dead, more than a dozen injured. Many parents still weren't happy with the raffle itself taking place at the school. And one parent even said quote, they're selling guns on school property where we have active shooter drills now. Fun little thing. Just to top off the sort of poop Sunday, little little final thing to sprinkle on these fundraising events. Palm friends of the NRA
Speaker 2:
35:38
netted more than $33 million last year. I mean, look, it's, it's things like four H clubs, hunting clubs, archery teams, rifle teams, all have really positive impact on kids' lives. Yeah. And so not, not to take that away. You know, I was, I was part of a shooting team as a kid. You shot the [inaudible] skeet, right? I shot skeet and trap and sporting clays. Yeah. Lipins and metal and stuff. You were like a master. Exactly. I was most likely to become the Knicks, Annie Oakley. Um, it was a, and so those things have, have real value. However, there is also, you're there, there's, I think there's three big issues here that we need to talk about. You know, one really is just this structural concern of how you are actually controlling where the guns go and how background checks are being conducted. And are you conducting background checks before you, someone can enter in a, how are you preventing things like straw purchases?
Speaker 2:
36:40
Yeah. Juices I E straw rufflings from taking place. Can I apply for a raffle when a gun and give it to my best friend and there's no record of this sale. Right? And your, your best friend is a mass murderer who just got out of jail. I mean like, what do you know my life, Kai shoot, you are missing gun lobby. So it's like saying, Oh, we can't, we can't reference that. But you, you can tell like you are a little weird or something. You, you, you are special in this, in this office, hurtful, uh, yet true. Um, how you, so, so there's just that really structural concern that is something that we need to be keeping in mind. We need to make sure that guns don't get into the hands of people who intentionally want to do harm. And I mean that's the reason that we're working really hard to close the private sale loophole.
Speaker 2:
37:29
And this just opens itself up to a lot of that, that structural abuse. I mean, so that's issue number one. That's, that's their, uh, the second issue really is this just sort of tone deaf, normative sense of what's going on. You if again, things like four H clubs, hunting clubs, shooting clubs, there are, they're all willing good. But everybody in this country knows right now that top of mind for almost every parent is the EU an unfortunate reality that they, there's a fear around school shootings taking place. And despite the fact that they make up a very, very small percentage of actual gun violence, they occupy a very large part of the American psyche. And I mean, for good reason, they should never happen. Like this just shouldn't be a thing that exists anywhere. And so the equating you bringing guns into school or glorifying guns in schools is something that just is just frankly tone deaf.
Speaker 2:
38:35
I mean even if you're not actually bringing guns in it, it sends around message. It really undermines the good that some of these, your, these positive, um, your positive clubs and events and things like that. You could actually have just, it's that mixed messaging of on one hand we're on one hand the idea is that the sale of these are the raffling. On one hand the idea is that the raffling and these weapons will ideally provide training and sort of the increase the culture of responsible gun ownership. Yet at the same time, what's fundraising for this? Responsible gun ownership is something that on the surface could be very irresponsibly done. It just breeds fear and unnecessarily puts it at a necessarily like brings fear into people's lives. It sends the wrong message, it continues divisiveness of conversations. It's just unnecessarily tone deaf. It's just not something you need to be doing.
Speaker 2:
39:29
I've never seen someone in civilian wear who has a number of guns very clearly in open carry and not felt scared. Exactly. There's just no neat, yeah, help this the way it is. So seeing I think like a, like a high capacity magazine rifle in a school gym, it just doesn't, right. Just sends a very tone deaf tone, deaf message. And I think that that really goes, and it ties in very, very well with this. The third sort of aspect around this is that it, it relates to the sort of overall inconsistency with some of the messaging we're seeing coming out of the friends of the NRA were on the one hand, yes, absolutely. We need more responsibility. We need to create cultures of expectancy around being responsible gun owners. We need to have more open and honest conversations about what it means to be a responsible gun owner and how that should be part of everybody's lives. Who chooses to be a gun owner. And that's why this podcast is great too, because we actually explore that quite a bit. Yeah. But at the same time, you're doing something so insanely irresponsible that is essentially flying in the face of all of those lessons that you're teaching, teaching yo. Part of being a responsible gun owner is that you should go through background checks because guns are inherently dangerous. They were designed to kill people. It shouldn't be something that's cavalier. You know, they're not popcorn.
Speaker 4:
41:02
[inaudible]
Speaker 1:
42:51
[inaudible]
Speaker 3:
42:52
as always, Brady's lifesaving work in Congress. The courts and communities across the country is made possible. Thanks to you. For more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcast. Get in touch with us@bradyunited.org or go on social app, Brady buzz. Be brave and remember, take action, not sides.
Speaker 1:
43:30
[inaudible].
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